I've just read the following in Berkhof's Systematic Theology:



I'm not sure what it adds to the debate or whether it stands contrary to anything said previously?

Okay,

Thanks for the link to Nicks talk on http://www.bpchurch.org.uk/standrews/uploads/media/Week3.pdf, I missed that one and will now go and read up on it.

So where does that bring us to?

As I understand it we have agreed the following:

1) God is at work in His creation and his attributes are there for all to see if they will (Romans 1 v 20).

2) The term 'Panentheism' is possibly not helpful to the discussion as it is a loaded term and may mean different things to different people.

and

3) God is involved as the sustaining power in His world, that He is involved with it and cares for it, but is distinct from it.

I suppose boiling it down, what I want to talk about is really both the 'transcendence' of God and his 'immanence' in creation, to use terms that might be more acceptable.

How can we as finite humans attempt to understand these? Should we try? And what are the practical implications of these to our everyday life?

Nothing big you understand!

I read quite a few articles about panentheism this morning, they said a wide range of things, but quite a number spoke of creation as being part of God. ie panen-theism
I think that Panen-theism is totally contrary to a biblical understanding of God (I think we are in agreement on that much)

The matter of pan-entheism is harder as you rightly suggest.
I have no trouble at all with the concept that we can see God's glory reflected in creation, and indeed scripture does quite clearly tell us that all that God made was good, that was affected by the fall, but I would agree that the image of God can still be seen in creation, albeit a marred image. (I think again we are in agreement here.)

So that leaves us with the question "Does God indwell all things?"
My answer is no, but I wonder if we need to define the question more clearly?

First, as I stated in my last post I do believe that God is everywhere (Psalm 139 v 8-10 amongst other references)
But does that mean God is in all things?

I don't think so, but I really need scripture to justify that.
Let's start with:

2 Chronicles 2:6 “For the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him.” (2 Chronicles 2:6) - this says that God cannot be contained by the whole creation, so how can He be in part of it? (I don't think this is at all conclusive on it's own, but it raises the question of how an infinite God can dwell in finite objects)

How about:
1 John 4:13 "By this we know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."

This talks about God dwelling in man, but there are some quite specific conditions, the sign of God dwelling in us is that we have received His Spirit and we only receive the Spirit when we believe in the gospel:

Ephesians 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's own possession - to the praise of His glory."
This suggests to me that God dwelling in man is not the normal situation except through belief in Jesus...

I don't think that either of the above really provide a conclusive answer to the original question, but I think they support my opinion that although we can see evidence of the Creator reflected in his creation, He is not in any way contained by it, which I think is what pan-entheism would suggest...

These are only my thoughts,I would be glad to hear others wisdom

Though from Nick's recent seminar (week 1) we have:

IMMENSITY & INCORPOREALITY:
God is a Spirit (he doesn’t have a body) and he is unbounded by space, he doesn’t have edges. Again
the focus is on God’s independence and lack of constraint.

Notice how time and again the idea that resurfaces in the attributes is closely related to the idea of
monotheism, that God is independent and incomparable. Consistently the ideas are of unboundedness/
unrestrictedness.
God is independent/unaffected:
with regard to time
with regard to power
with regard to passion
with regard to knowledge
with regard to space
All these things suggest the same thing, God is perfected and without need.

The whole of seminar 3 of "Ready for service" also deals with the Creator and the Creation and is well worth reading while thinking about this subject (and it is available on this website!!)

I think you make a very valid point here Viv:



I also agree 100% with this statement:



Perhaps we need to more clearly define our terms, to avoid misunderstandings.

Would the addition of a hyphen help?

I think I'm talking about Pan-entheism (God indwells in all things), rather than Panen-theism (All things are part of God but God is more than the sum of all things).

The former, I think, would more easily fit in with the following than the latter:



As for your last point, I'm not convinced of your logic, but I concede that occasionally matters of faith defy logic because of the human inability to grasp the way God works. (Fancy way of saying I could be stupid!)

I have however heared it argued that all Creation is holy, by virtue of being created by God who is Holy.

Creation is however somehow fractured or corrupted because of the presence of sin and the Fall. Just as a broken mirror still reflects an image, even if it is difficult to discern, so God can still be seen even in fallen creation.

That is why:



If this is the case (and again that point could well be up for debate because the analogy could well be wrong) then I can see how someone might think that God could be found in everything.

I would appreciate some input from Nick or Steve on this one, to help clarify my thoughts.

I would agreed wholeheartedly with Viv's response. The Holy Spirit dwells within us as Christians but I would not say He dwells within all creation, although certainly is omnipresent. I do very much enjoy the evidence for a creator God all around me in nature and indeed I would echo Jon's thoughts that this is God at work in His creation.

I don't have any problem with your initial answer to the question:
I responded that by merely seeing the world I saw God at work.

I think it is biblical to say that we see God at work in His creation:
The heavens declare the glory of God,
the skies proclaim the work of his hands;
Day after day they pour forth speech,
Night after night they display knowledge. —Ps. 19.1-2

Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for thunderstorm to
water a land where no man lives, a desert where no one lives. -Job 38.25-26
etc etc

But from what I've read Panentheism is saying a lot more than that, it suggests that
God is in everything and everything is in God, in effect that creation (the whole universe)
is part of God, though it allows that God is greater and extends beyond the universe...

I don't think this view is compatible biblical Christian belief,

We believe that God is involved as the sustaining power in His world, that He is involved
with it and cares for it, but is distinct from it. We are told to worship the Creator not the creation,
this implies the two are distinct:

They exchanged the Truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather
than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. -Romans 1 v25

A panentheistic view is held by some within the Christian church often presented as a counter to
the view of God as a distant uncaring deity, but a panentheistic view is at odds with our belief with
the fallen nature of our world, if "God is in creation" how can He be a Holy God when creation itself
is not holy?

Only a very brief response - I'm sure there's lots more to say.

One thing I read suggested that
if God is everywhere then God must be in everything
I believe the former but not the latter, what do you think of that logic?

During House-group this week the following question was asked:



I answered the question completely differently to everyone else, because they all had specific events and blessings in mind, whereas I responded that by merely seeing the world I saw God at work.

From research on the subject, I understand this view to be called Panentheism (God Indwelling in all things)

My questions are:

1) How valid is this world view to the Christian?

2) Is it scriptural?

3) What are the possible advantages and potential errors of such a worldview?