I wouldn't quite have used those terms Viv, as Philip didn't in the sermon, but essentially yes.

One thing I have seen in the wider Church (but not necessarily in our congregation) is a tendency to round on people who don't always 100% tow the party line on an issue. They may be 98% or even 99% there - but because they admit to doubt in one area, they start taking flak, when in fact they need pastoral care.

It struck me that if or when we send up this flak, we become like the Pharisees in this passage.

I was reminded of times past when I too have fallen into this trap - and I pray that I may never do so again. (That said we do have to use discernment to identify the siginficance of the issue in question, sometimes it is of course wrong to give ground.)

Do you or other posters have any more ideas?

I presume you're talking about how "religion" can keep people away from God, and even be a means of avoiding God, a "substitute for grace"?

It is so very true - but I don't think we can really make much in the way generalisations about it, because all the things we're talking about, like reading the bible, prayer, coming to church, giving etc are good and desirable things, but as Philip so rightly said, it is when we allow those things to become an end in themselves, rather than the means of grace, that we have a problem!

I guess the key is to be constantly examining ourselves, because if we do, we will so aware of our need for grace that we will not kid ourselves that any of the things we do will make us "good enough" without grace! - or that others are less good if they don't do those things!! I think we need to do that individually, but I think we need to do it corporately too... I guess you're suggesting that we engage in that examination? If so, what do you see as the issues?

Thanks to Phil for preaching on the above on Sunday morning, in spite of feeling unprepared.

It chimed in many ways with thoughts I have had on the subject (though I must be careful of box ticking here!).

I was wondering how maybe as a denomination or congregation we might apply what we learned, and what areas we might need to improve?

I appreciate that the internet is not the best place for soul searching, so I suppose we should keep it to general points and as usual the Moderators decision is final.